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	<title>Comments on: Prof. Ryn&#8217;s &#8220;Crazy Talk&#8221;</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-403</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-403</guid>
					<description>Thanks, Ian.  Daniel McCarthy's post tipped me off about this article already, but I appreciate your taking the trouble to find it.  I admit I skimmed through it the first time through, as I was moving quickly to incorporate part of it in one of my other posts (see Misreading Ryn at http://larison.org/archives/000843.php), but I expect that he answers or anticipates any or all of the objections he is receiving from the Claremont folks now.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Ian.  Daniel McCarthy&#8217;s post tipped me off about this article already, but I appreciate your taking the trouble to find it.  I admit I skimmed through it the first time through, as I was moving quickly to incorporate part of it in one of my other posts (see Misreading Ryn at <a href='http://larison.org/archives/000843.php' rel='nofollow'>http://larison.org/archives/000843.php</a>), but I expect that he answers or anticipates any or all of the objections he is receiving from the Claremont folks now.
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		<title>by: Ian</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-402</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 22:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-402</guid>
					<description>Speaking of Ryn (and Strauss), there is an interesting series of articles in the lastest issue of HUMANITAS. Professor Ryn's essay is titled 'Leo Strauss &#38; History: The Philosopher as Conspirator'.

http://www.nhinet.org/hum.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Ryn (and Strauss), there is an interesting series of articles in the lastest issue of HUMANITAS. Professor Ryn&#8217;s essay is titled &#8216;Leo Strauss &amp; History: The Philosopher as Conspirator&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href='http://www.nhinet.org/hum.htm' rel='nofollow'>http://www.nhinet.org/hum.htm</a>
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-401</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-401</guid>
					<description>I was exposed to more of the tendentious style at a Claremont student's blog: institutions can't evolve over time in history (that's never happened!), because if they did that would mean that human nature changes over time, which means that traditonalists think you can make man into whatever you want!  Um...no.  That guy is a graduate student?  Scary.  This is why the study of history is so vital, because it instills a mind that understands the processes of gradual change and how to make use of those processes to preserve what is most needful.  Traditions do not up and preserve themselves by magic--we have to do it, and so we have to understand how customs and institutions endure and how they fail in time.  One of the few constants we can rely on is a constant human nature.  The ludicrous claims these people make!

Of course Prof. Ryn is familiar with Strauss.  The charge that he must know nothing about it because he has not come to the Straussians' conclusion about the maestro isn't very convincing.  Naturally, we would have to be interested in how the Good is manifested in life, in real, particular things.  Otherwise, of what real value or meaning is it?  To put it in theological terms, we must incarnate the Word to transform our lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was exposed to more of the tendentious style at a Claremont student&#8217;s blog: institutions can&#8217;t evolve over time in history (that&#8217;s never happened!), because if they did that would mean that human nature changes over time, which means that traditonalists think you can make man into whatever you want!  Um&#8230;no.  That guy is a graduate student?  Scary.  This is why the study of history is so vital, because it instills a mind that understands the processes of gradual change and how to make use of those processes to preserve what is most needful.  Traditions do not up and preserve themselves by magic&#8211;we have to do it, and so we have to understand how customs and institutions endure and how they fail in time.  One of the few constants we can rely on is a constant human nature.  The ludicrous claims these people make!</p>
<p>Of course Prof. Ryn is familiar with Strauss.  The charge that he must know nothing about it because he has not come to the Straussians&#8217; conclusion about the maestro isn&#8217;t very convincing.  Naturally, we would have to be interested in how the Good is manifested in life, in real, particular things.  Otherwise, of what real value or meaning is it?  To put it in theological terms, we must incarnate the Word to transform our lives.
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		<title>by: MJK</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-400</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-400</guid>
					<description>Previewing your Comment
To come to the defense of an old professor of mine, Mr. Peterson's "refutation" of Dr. Ryn's recent paper seems more ad hominen than one typically expects from a Straussian: or, may be I'm just reading between the lines abit too much. 

As a previous student of Dr. Ryn, I'm confident that he would have little quarrel with giving Strauss proper recognition and his due. In fact, I recall that Strauss's Natural Right and History was required reading in a Ryn course. He dutifully presented Strauss's thesis, and then quite ably rescued Edmund Burke and the importance of history from Strauss's ahistorical caricature of same. 

Peterson second point seems tenuous at best. Chalk it up to Ryn's influence may be, but I believe it is more accurate to state that the ancient and Christian traditional political philosophy focused on the good, the true, and the beautiful as they manifested themselves in life, which possesses ancestral and cultural dimensions - protestations of many of Strauss's disciples and some Neo-Thomist to the contrary notwithstanding. I gather this is why I find Prof. Lukacs's historical philosophy more interesting than Maritain's philosophy of history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Previewing your Comment<br />
To come to the defense of an old professor of mine, Mr. Peterson&#8217;s &#8220;refutation&#8221; of Dr. Ryn&#8217;s recent paper seems more ad hominen than one typically expects from a Straussian: or, may be I&#8217;m just reading between the lines abit too much. </p>
<p>As a previous student of Dr. Ryn, I&#8217;m confident that he would have little quarrel with giving Strauss proper recognition and his due. In fact, I recall that Strauss&#8217;s Natural Right and History was required reading in a Ryn course. He dutifully presented Strauss&#8217;s thesis, and then quite ably rescued Edmund Burke and the importance of history from Strauss&#8217;s ahistorical caricature of same. </p>
<p>Peterson second point seems tenuous at best. Chalk it up to Ryn&#8217;s influence may be, but I believe it is more accurate to state that the ancient and Christian traditional political philosophy focused on the good, the true, and the beautiful as they manifested themselves in life, which possesses ancestral and cultural dimensions - protestations of many of Strauss&#8217;s disciples and some Neo-Thomist to the contrary notwithstanding. I gather this is why I find Prof. Lukacs&#8217;s historical philosophy more interesting than Maritain&#8217;s philosophy of history.
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		<title>by: scriblerus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-399</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-399</guid>
					<description>Yes, you have the Claremont crowd's rather tendentious arguing style down.

Basically, Strauss thinks that revelation can't be reasoned about but also he doesn't want to reject revelation completely.  Essentially, that is the modern mistake.  You're quite right to link Strauss' ideas with Averroism, since Strauss studied medieval Islamic philosophy quite intensively, along with Maimonides.

The twist that Jaffa introduces is to say that although revelation can't be reasoned about, the two do agree on essential moral duties.  So, despite all his idiocies about America being the "best regime," Jaffa would also criticize people who say that there is no truth but most people can't understand this so they need to be kept in their place with lies.  Apparently, Jaffa detested Allan Bloom, because he thought Bloom believed that philosophy and morality were ultimately incompatible.

  FYI, there is an excellent critique of Strauss and Jaffa's treatment of Aquinas by a student of Macintyre: Pamela Hall, "Narrative and the Natural Law."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you have the Claremont crowd&#8217;s rather tendentious arguing style down.</p>
<p>Basically, Strauss thinks that revelation can&#8217;t be reasoned about but also he doesn&#8217;t want to reject revelation completely.  Essentially, that is the modern mistake.  You&#8217;re quite right to link Strauss&#8217; ideas with Averroism, since Strauss studied medieval Islamic philosophy quite intensively, along with Maimonides.</p>
<p>The twist that Jaffa introduces is to say that although revelation can&#8217;t be reasoned about, the two do agree on essential moral duties.  So, despite all his idiocies about America being the &#8220;best regime,&#8221; Jaffa would also criticize people who say that there is no truth but most people can&#8217;t understand this so they need to be kept in their place with lies.  Apparently, Jaffa detested Allan Bloom, because he thought Bloom believed that philosophy and morality were ultimately incompatible.</p>
<p>  FYI, there is an excellent critique of Strauss and Jaffa&#8217;s treatment of Aquinas by a student of Macintyre: Pamela Hall, &#8220;Narrative and the Natural Law.&#8221;
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-398</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-398</guid>
					<description>I shudder to think what Mr. Peterson would make of MacIntyre.  The reasoning seems to be this: if you do not accept, say, Locke's idea of natural rights and the law of nature, then you don't accept "God-given natural rights" (whatever those might be) and pretty soon you must not believe in God.  Or you may believe in God, but you don't believe in the Founding, which is a much more grave crime than atheism.

Your comments on Strauss confirm what I was guessing to be the case.  He does not think reason can disprove revelation, because he thinks revelation is not something to be reasoned about at all.  In which case theology as a whole is pointless, which doesn't leave much room for Aquinas, Jacobite (I'm still laughing about that one) or not.  From what you're telling me, Strauss seems almost to be taking up a position where truth is not one: reason talks about some things, revelation about others, and never the twain shall meet.  Averroism, anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I shudder to think what Mr. Peterson would make of MacIntyre.  The reasoning seems to be this: if you do not accept, say, Locke&#8217;s idea of natural rights and the law of nature, then you don&#8217;t accept &#8220;God-given natural rights&#8221; (whatever those might be) and pretty soon you must not believe in God.  Or you may believe in God, but you don&#8217;t believe in the Founding, which is a much more grave crime than atheism.</p>
<p>Your comments on Strauss confirm what I was guessing to be the case.  He does not think reason can disprove revelation, because he thinks revelation is not something to be reasoned about at all.  In which case theology as a whole is pointless, which doesn&#8217;t leave much room for Aquinas, Jacobite (I&#8217;m still laughing about that one) or not.  From what you&#8217;re telling me, Strauss seems almost to be taking up a position where truth is not one: reason talks about some things, revelation about others, and never the twain shall meet.  Averroism, anyone?
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		<title>by: scriblerus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-397</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-397</guid>
					<description>The Corner at NRO picked up on this controversy a bit so I reread the Claremont comments.  I mentioned in the previous post that the best way to understand Strauss is to look at him in context, i.e., the religious debates taking place in Weimar.  There is  a very significant Jewish component of his thinking that Claremont folks simply don't acknowledge or, perhaps, aren't even cognizant of.

This isn't intended as a racial remark but their ignorance of their own tradition shows up nicely in the comments of Matthew Peterson about Aquinas.  For Strauss, the paradigmatic example of the nature of Revelation is the Jewish Old Testament and the idea of a law simply dictated by God that really has nothing to do with human reason (it can't be refuted by reason but it can't be understood by reason either).  Strauss abandons modern rationalism and returns to the rationalism of Maimonides (and, via him, Plato) as more moderate alternative to modern rationalism (i.e., because it treats the limits of reason in the face of revelation more gingerly and doesn't attempt to fully resolve the disputes).  This is when Strauss gets into "esoteric teaching," etc.  Aquinas had a much different understanding of the interplay between reason and revelation and it wasn't "Jacobinical" of Aquinas to apply reason to truths of the faith.  Unlike Strauss, Aquinas held to the analogy of being, so that we affirm that, e.g., God is love, even though we do not mean it in the way that human beings understand love.  Thus, for Aquinas there just isn't the ultimate division between the two that there is for Strauss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Corner at NRO picked up on this controversy a bit so I reread the Claremont comments.  I mentioned in the previous post that the best way to understand Strauss is to look at him in context, i.e., the religious debates taking place in Weimar.  There is  a very significant Jewish component of his thinking that Claremont folks simply don&#8217;t acknowledge or, perhaps, aren&#8217;t even cognizant of.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t intended as a racial remark but their ignorance of their own tradition shows up nicely in the comments of Matthew Peterson about Aquinas.  For Strauss, the paradigmatic example of the nature of Revelation is the Jewish Old Testament and the idea of a law simply dictated by God that really has nothing to do with human reason (it can&#8217;t be refuted by reason but it can&#8217;t be understood by reason either).  Strauss abandons modern rationalism and returns to the rationalism of Maimonides (and, via him, Plato) as more moderate alternative to modern rationalism (i.e., because it treats the limits of reason in the face of revelation more gingerly and doesn&#8217;t attempt to fully resolve the disputes).  This is when Strauss gets into &#8220;esoteric teaching,&#8221; etc.  Aquinas had a much different understanding of the interplay between reason and revelation and it wasn&#8217;t &#8220;Jacobinical&#8221; of Aquinas to apply reason to truths of the faith.  Unlike Strauss, Aquinas held to the analogy of being, so that we affirm that, e.g., God is love, even though we do not mean it in the way that human beings understand love.  Thus, for Aquinas there just isn&#8217;t the ultimate division between the two that there is for Strauss.
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		<title>by: scriblerus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-396</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2006/04/06/prof-ryns-crazy-talk/#comment-396</guid>
					<description>This Philadelphia Society sounds a lot more interesting than the one I attended in October 2003, when we had Harry Jaffa speak.  At least there were some aftershocks; at ours, he delivered his usual schtick about "Father Abraham" (i.e., Lincoln), refused to engage audience questions (from rather prominent folks) and then was ushered off the stage by Charles Kesler, who, I suppose was his keeper for the weekend.

Straussians are a frustrating bunch.  As Mark Lilla pointed out in October 2004, most present day Straussians (especially of the Claremont variety) really bear little relation to Strauss himself.  He engaged in his reconsideration of Maimonides and Plato in the context of debates about the fate of Jews in the Weimar republic.  These writings set the stage for much of his later work on esoteric writing, Plato, etc. and is quite interesting.  Strauss is interesting but Straussians are simply not.

The biggest problem for conservatives when engaging with Straussians (especially the Claremont variety) is that they refuse to acknowledge or even engage Macintyre's idea of the rationality of traditions and simply force everything into the dichotomy of natural right or historicism (nihilism).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Philadelphia Society sounds a lot more interesting than the one I attended in October 2003, when we had Harry Jaffa speak.  At least there were some aftershocks; at ours, he delivered his usual schtick about &#8220;Father Abraham&#8221; (i.e., Lincoln), refused to engage audience questions (from rather prominent folks) and then was ushered off the stage by Charles Kesler, who, I suppose was his keeper for the weekend.</p>
<p>Straussians are a frustrating bunch.  As Mark Lilla pointed out in October 2004, most present day Straussians (especially of the Claremont variety) really bear little relation to Strauss himself.  He engaged in his reconsideration of Maimonides and Plato in the context of debates about the fate of Jews in the Weimar republic.  These writings set the stage for much of his later work on esoteric writing, Plato, etc. and is quite interesting.  Strauss is interesting but Straussians are simply not.</p>
<p>The biggest problem for conservatives when engaging with Straussians (especially the Claremont variety) is that they refuse to acknowledge or even engage Macintyre&#8217;s idea of the rationality of traditions and simply force everything into the dichotomy of natural right or historicism (nihilism).
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