Comments on: Hyde Park Stories http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/ n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:29:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Grumpy Old Man http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5685 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:49:20 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5685 Back in the day <i>Pather Panchali</i> and <i>The World of Apu</i> were beautiful films by Satyajit Ray, who I think was Bengali. Probably Ray's trilogy has as little to do with Bollywood as <i>The Third Man</i> has to do with <i>Gigi</i>. BTW, my chivvying of Daniel for his interest in Indian films was intended to be friendly. A traditionalist is not the same as a troglodyte. If I'm chrismated by the Antiochian Orthodox Church, it sure won't make me an Arab. Back in the day Pather Panchali and The World of Apu were beautiful films by Satyajit Ray, who I think was Bengali.

Probably Ray’s trilogy has as little to do with Bollywood as The Third Man has to do with Gigi.

BTW, my chivvying of Daniel for his interest in Indian films was intended to be friendly. A traditionalist is not the same as a troglodyte. If I’m chrismated by the Antiochian Orthodox Church, it sure won’t make me an Arab.

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5684 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:35:45 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5684 Perhaps I do. If so, I don't know what it says about my status as a reactionary. Obviously I had no idea about that history of the language. I was briefly tempted to try to learn Bengali, but the reality that I had no practical use for it whatever cooled my interest. But these are the sorts of problems that one will run into when all the most beautiful actresses in Indian cinema are Bengali, while all of the major films are produced in Hindi. Ill-informed outsiders, such as I am, will wind up saying all manner of inappropriate things. Perhaps I do. If so, I don’t know what it says about my status as a reactionary.

Obviously I had no idea about that history of the language. I was briefly tempted to try to learn Bengali, but the reality that I had no practical use for it whatever cooled my interest. But these are the sorts of problems that one will run into when all the most beautiful actresses in Indian cinema are Bengali, while all of the major films are produced in Hindi. Ill-informed outsiders, such as I am, will wind up saying all manner of inappropriate things.

]]> by: razib http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5683 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:28:05 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5683 you prolly know more about bollywood than i ;-) <i>South Asian Muslim peoples with loan-words</i> an obscure fact is that literary bengali did purge these words since it was the preserve of hindu elites. but colloquial bengali in eastern bengal did not. similarly, though hindi did purge, it wasn't as extreme as bengali, and so there are words that muslim bengalis use which are common in hindi (and have a turko-persian-arabic provenance) which are not found in high bengali. the word for water, for example, is the same for hindi speakers and muslim bengalis, but different from hindu bengalis.... you prolly know more about bollywood than i ;-)

South Asian Muslim peoples with loan-words

an obscure fact is that literary bengali did purge these words since it was the preserve of hindu elites. but colloquial bengali in eastern bengal did not. similarly, though hindi did purge, it wasn’t as extreme as bengali, and so there are words that muslim bengalis use which are common in hindi (and have a turko-persian-arabic provenance) which are not found in high bengali. the word for water, for example, is the same for hindi speakers and muslim bengalis, but different from hindu bengalis….

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5682 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:20:35 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5682 Incidentally, this little argument reminds me why I typically say as little as possible about my interest in Bollywood, since apparently no good can ever come of it. Incidentally, this little argument reminds me why I typically say as little as possible about my interest in Bollywood, since apparently no good can ever come of it.

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5681 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:09:48 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5681 You're very likely right, GOM. The Greeks referred to the frangoi, and Sayat Nova speaks of Frangistan when referring to Europe, so as a Byzantinist I will claim the privilege of referring to myself with a word derived from the one the Byzantines would have used to describe me. You’re very likely right, GOM. The Greeks referred to the frangoi, and Sayat Nova speaks of Frangistan when referring to Europe, so as a Byzantinist I will claim the privilege of referring to myself with a word derived from the one the Byzantines would have used to describe me.

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5680 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:07:07 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5680 Yes, it is originally a Persian word used in Hindi. I don't know Bengali beyond namaskar, so that's the best I could do when trying to make an amusing reference to non-Indians. Since Persian was a major literary language of India that predates modern Hindi and presumably litters the languages of South Asian Muslim peoples with loan-words (I don't know this for a fact, but it stands to reason), I should think that firenghi would be among the less objectionable words that I could use in this case. If I used pardesi, then you could really give me a hard time. If I were speaking to a Frenchman in English, I might very well use any number of words that are not French. So sorry to impose northern Indian cultural imperialism on you. Yes, it is originally a Persian word used in Hindi. I don’t know Bengali beyond namaskar, so that’s the best I could do when trying to make an amusing reference to non-Indians. Since Persian was a major literary language of India that predates modern Hindi and presumably litters the languages of South Asian Muslim peoples with loan-words (I don’t know this for a fact, but it stands to reason), I should think that firenghi would be among the less objectionable words that I could use in this case. If I used pardesi, then you could really give me a hard time.

If I were speaking to a Frenchman in English, I might very well use any number of words that are not French. So sorry to impose northern Indian cultural imperialism on you.

]]> by: Grumpy Old Man http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5679 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:03:25 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5679 Actually, if I'm not mistaken, <i>firenghi</i> probably goes back to the work "Franks" and came through Arabic into Persion and thence to Urdu-Hindi. Actually, if I’m not mistaken, firenghi probably goes back to the work “Franks” and came through Arabic into Persion and thence to Urdu-Hindi.

]]> by: Jason LaLonde http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5678 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:49:11 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5678 I am more shocked that you went to Dunkin' Donuts. We usually don't get these kind of intimate details in a Daniel Larison post. I am more shocked that you went to Dunkin’ Donuts. We usually don’t get these kind of intimate details in a Daniel Larison post.

]]> by: razib http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5677 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:41:56 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5677 <i>firenghi</i>* is a hindi word. i don't recognize lexicon from a language whose literary history only goes back a few hundred years. would you use the word <i>auslander</i> when speaking to a frenchmen? * this term actually has a persian provenance. firenghi* is a hindi word. i don’t recognize lexicon from a language whose literary history only goes back a few hundred years. would you use the word auslander when speaking to a frenchmen?

* this term actually has a persian provenance.

]]> by: Daniel Larison http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5676 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:06:21 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5676 I like to think that traditionalists are the people most capable of being cosmopolitan in the sense than John Lukacs uses the word, because we have an abiding respect for history and place great store by our own culture, language and literature, so we are that much better able to appreciate someone else's attachments to his history, customs and traditions. It doesn't mean that we endorse or approve of everyone else's customs, but it means that we understand their importance. Now maybe I'm kidding myself, but my impression is that there is no one more provincial and trapped by the horizons of his tradition than the man who thinks he has universal values and that culture and religion are all but irrelevant in the real world. Of course, none of this is necessarily related to my watching Bollywood films. They are things I just happen to enjoy. It is assuredly mass pop entertainment and, as such, is probably not the best example of a cross-cultural connection that would demonstrate genuine acquaintance with the various Indian cultures. If you know where these young women are, I would be glad if you could point them in my direction. Razib, fear not. We firenghis can simply look on in awe and admiration, but they are surely beyond our reach. I like to think that traditionalists are the people most capable of being cosmopolitan in the sense than John Lukacs uses the word, because we have an abiding respect for history and place great store by our own culture, language and literature, so we are that much better able to appreciate someone else’s attachments to his history, customs and traditions. It doesn’t mean that we endorse or approve of everyone else’s customs, but it means that we understand their importance. Now maybe I’m kidding myself, but my impression is that there is no one more provincial and trapped by the horizons of his tradition than the man who thinks he has universal values and that culture and religion are all but irrelevant in the real world. Of course, none of this is necessarily related to my watching Bollywood films. They are things I just happen to enjoy. It is assuredly mass pop entertainment and, as such, is probably not the best example of a cross-cultural connection that would demonstrate genuine acquaintance with the various Indian cultures.

If you know where these young women are, I would be glad if you could point them in my direction.

Razib, fear not. We firenghis can simply look on in awe and admiration, but they are surely beyond our reach.

]]> by: Grumpy Old Man http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5675 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:57:28 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5675 You misunderstand. I was not speaking of Bengali women, about whom I know nothing. Nor was I suggesting anything improper. Forgive my lack of precision, please. You misunderstand. I was not speaking of Bengali women, about whom I know nothing. Nor was I suggesting anything improper.

Forgive my lack of precision, please.

]]> by: razib http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5674 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:20:16 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5674 as a bengali man, can i please get some respect for <i><b>our</b></i> women??? they are not for the likes of you! as a bengali man, can i please get some respect for our women??? they are not for the likes of you!

]]> by: Grumpy Old Man http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5673 Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:30:00 +0000 http://larison.org/2007/02/27/hyde-park-stories/#comment-5673 You may be a traditionalist, but you're sure culturally mobile. No doubt you're beating a certain kid of young woman off with a stick. They love this kind of stuff. Really. You may be a traditionalist, but you’re sure culturally mobile.

No doubt you’re beating a certain kid of young woman off with a stick. They love this kind of stuff.

Really.

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