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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t &#8220;Remind&#8221; Me</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: cyrus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6237</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6237</guid>
					<description>Well, Mr. Larison has gone and defended me more ably than I could have myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Mr. Larison has gone and defended me more ably than I could have myself.
</p>
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		<title>by: cyrus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6236</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6236</guid>
					<description>Yes, I know the Byzantines weren't Catholic.

The myth I referred to was the one, stemming from the Enlightment and repeated by Ms. Kramer, of a Europe submerged in Papist, or more broadly, merely Christian (there was no distinction through most of the period), darkness from roughly the conversion of Constantine the Great until the Renaissance.  Ms. Kramer knows her liberal mythology well, and doesn't miss the opportunity to remind us of how Christendom would have remained in darkness were it not for the lovely, advanced, and oh-so-tolerant Muslims who treasured the full spectrum of Greek achievement while Europeans were living in filth.  The truth, as Mr. Larison points out, is somewhat different. 

Insofar as the myth originated with the specifically anti-Catholic philosophes, and insofar as it is from them through anti-Catholic liberals of the 19th and 20th centuries that it arrives in the minds and on the fingertips of today's New Yorker writers, it is not unfair to call it anti-Catholic.   But, I can see how I was unclear, and I'd rather not belabor the point.  Never mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know the Byzantines weren&#8217;t Catholic.</p>
<p>The myth I referred to was the one, stemming from the Enlightment and repeated by Ms. Kramer, of a Europe submerged in Papist, or more broadly, merely Christian (there was no distinction through most of the period), darkness from roughly the conversion of Constantine the Great until the Renaissance.  Ms. Kramer knows her liberal mythology well, and doesn&#8217;t miss the opportunity to remind us of how Christendom would have remained in darkness were it not for the lovely, advanced, and oh-so-tolerant Muslims who treasured the full spectrum of Greek achievement while Europeans were living in filth.  The truth, as Mr. Larison points out, is somewhat different. </p>
<p>Insofar as the myth originated with the specifically anti-Catholic philosophes, and insofar as it is from them through anti-Catholic liberals of the 19th and 20th centuries that it arrives in the minds and on the fingertips of today&#8217;s New Yorker writers, it is not unfair to call it anti-Catholic.   But, I can see how I was unclear, and I&#8217;d rather not belabor the point.  Never mind.
</p>
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		<title>by: razib</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6235</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6235</guid>
					<description>i think another reason that al-andalus might be weighted heavily is the percolation of the influence of 'the commentator' (averrores) amongst the thinkers at the university of paris.  italy was much more powerfully and directly affected by the byzantine emigration, but france &#38; england to my knowledge benefited from this indirectly and without conscious attribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think another reason that al-andalus might be weighted heavily is the percolation of the influence of &#8216;the commentator&#8217; (averrores) amongst the thinkers at the university of paris.  italy was much more powerfully and directly affected by the byzantine emigration, but france &amp; england to my knowledge benefited from this indirectly and without conscious attribution.
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6234</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6234</guid>
					<description>Thanks, Razib, for those points.  I should have been more precise about what I meant.  I was referring to the central tendency, and I was jumping over some of these distinctions since I believe the "rationalists" being cited in Ms. Kramer's piece both came out of a generally Sunni milieu.  You're quite right that Shi'ism remains much more open to those ideas, and unless I am mistaken I believe there was a god deal of prosopographical overlap between Mutazilites and proto-Shi'ites/'Alids in the 9th century.  As I think you have pointed out before, the "doors" of ijtihad never closed in the Shi'ite world, even if those doors acquired approved guardians.

I think Cyrus' point was that the circulation of the Islamic "Golden Age"/"Islam saved Greek philosophy" idea was the work of philosophes who sought to discredit the intellectual legacy of Catholic Europe by saying that Christians owed everything they knew about the classical tradition to the Muslims.  This was not done so much to praise Islam as it was to make the Catholic Church look bad and to undermine its claims to authority.  This was combined with Voltairean love-letters, so to speak, to the Ottomans about how tolerant and noble they were.  The image that many people have of a generally enlightened Islamic middle ages comes directly from an Enlightenment and deliberately anti-Catholic, liberal telling of medieval history.  

Of course, there were moments of intellectual and cultural flourishing in different Islamic centers in Umayyad Spain, just as there were anti-intellectual backlashes under the Almohads and Almoravids; the relatively more cultured Abbasids gave way to the much less cultured Seljuks; the Seljuks then established themselves in Anatolia and became patrons of culture.  The Islamic world produced Rumi and the Kharijites--two more opposed types you could scarcely imagine.  It is not an undifferentiated wasteland by any means, but with respect to the existence of "rationalism" the story is much more bleak (or happier, depending on your perspective), so it is a little strange that Muslims today want to insist on vindicating what was always a relatively weaker part of their tradition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Razib, for those points.  I should have been more precise about what I meant.  I was referring to the central tendency, and I was jumping over some of these distinctions since I believe the &#8220;rationalists&#8221; being cited in Ms. Kramer&#8217;s piece both came out of a generally Sunni milieu.  You&#8217;re quite right that Shi&#8217;ism remains much more open to those ideas, and unless I am mistaken I believe there was a god deal of prosopographical overlap between Mutazilites and proto-Shi&#8217;ites/&#8217;Alids in the 9th century.  As I think you have pointed out before, the &#8220;doors&#8221; of ijtihad never closed in the Shi&#8217;ite world, even if those doors acquired approved guardians.</p>
<p>I think Cyrus&#8217; point was that the circulation of the Islamic &#8220;Golden Age&#8221;/&#8221;Islam saved Greek philosophy&#8221; idea was the work of philosophes who sought to discredit the intellectual legacy of Catholic Europe by saying that Christians owed everything they knew about the classical tradition to the Muslims.  This was not done so much to praise Islam as it was to make the Catholic Church look bad and to undermine its claims to authority.  This was combined with Voltairean love-letters, so to speak, to the Ottomans about how tolerant and noble they were.  The image that many people have of a generally enlightened Islamic middle ages comes directly from an Enlightenment and deliberately anti-Catholic, liberal telling of medieval history.  </p>
<p>Of course, there were moments of intellectual and cultural flourishing in different Islamic centers in Umayyad Spain, just as there were anti-intellectual backlashes under the Almohads and Almoravids; the relatively more cultured Abbasids gave way to the much less cultured Seljuks; the Seljuks then established themselves in Anatolia and became patrons of culture.  The Islamic world produced Rumi and the Kharijites&#8211;two more opposed types you could scarcely imagine.  It is not an undifferentiated wasteland by any means, but with respect to the existence of &#8220;rationalism&#8221; the story is much more bleak (or happier, depending on your perspective), so it is a little strange that Muslims today want to insist on vindicating what was always a relatively weaker part of their tradition.
</p>
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		<title>by: ShanghaiLil</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6233</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6233</guid>
					<description>Em...Actually, Cyrus, the Byzantines weren't actually Catholic, as they would be the first to remind one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Em&#8230;Actually, Cyrus, the Byzantines weren&#8217;t actually Catholic, as they would be the first to remind one.
</p>
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		<title>by: razib</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6232</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6232</guid>
					<description>i agree with the general thrust of your comment...but, i think one should be careful about assertions about "about the &lt;b&gt;nature&lt;/b&gt; of Islam."  there is a central tendency, and then there are the other moments about the distribution.  e.g., i assume by 'rationalists' you mean the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutazilite" rel="nofollow"&gt;mutazilites&lt;/a&gt;, and yes, their thought has been dismissed and rejected by the major &lt;i&gt;sunni&lt;/i&gt; schools of thought, but its ideas remain acceptable within shiism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree with the general thrust of your comment&#8230;but, i think one should be careful about assertions about &#8220;about the <b>nature</b> of Islam.&#8221;  there is a central tendency, and then there are the other moments about the distribution.  e.g., i assume by &#8216;rationalists&#8217; you mean the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutazilite" rel="nofollow">mutazilites</a>, and yes, their thought has been dismissed and rejected by the major <i>sunni</i> schools of thought, but its ideas remain acceptable within shiism.
</p>
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		<title>by: cyrus</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6229</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/04/18/dont-remind-me/#comment-6229</guid>
					<description>Will this myth ever die?  Or are we doomed to bear the recycled "truths" of the &lt;i&gt;philosophes&lt;/i&gt; anti-Catholic propaganda for another three centuries?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will this myth ever die?  Or are we doomed to bear the recycled &#8220;truths&#8221; of the <i>philosophes</i> anti-Catholic propaganda for another three centuries?
</p>
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