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	<title>Comments on: Breaking News!  Vatican Restates Established Doctrine!</title>
	<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: James Kabala</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7284</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7284</guid>
					<description>I don't know as much about Orthodox theology as I should; do the Orthodox not believe that the Catholic Church has "valid sacraments and apostolic succession?" If you were to walk by a Catholic tabernacle, do you believe that the Real Presence is there, or that it is all a fake?  And the idea that heretics (provided they believe in truly basic doctrines like the Trinity and use the prescribed forms) nonetheless have valid baptisms (although not other sacraments, at least among groups like Protestants that lack a properly ordained clergy) goes back at least as far as St. Cyprian's time (although he himself was on the contrary side) and was defended by St. Augustine.  Did different views prevail in the East?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know as much about Orthodox theology as I should; do the Orthodox not believe that the Catholic Church has &#8220;valid sacraments and apostolic succession?&#8221; If you were to walk by a Catholic tabernacle, do you believe that the Real Presence is there, or that it is all a fake?  And the idea that heretics (provided they believe in truly basic doctrines like the Trinity and use the prescribed forms) nonetheless have valid baptisms (although not other sacraments, at least among groups like Protestants that lack a properly ordained clergy) goes back at least as far as St. Cyprian&#8217;s time (although he himself was on the contrary side) and was defended by St. Augustine.  Did different views prevail in the East?
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		<title>by: gabriel</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7266</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7266</guid>
					<description>Daniel, I suspect you are using "communion" in the sense of direct or indirect eucharistic communion.  You are right that this is not how the Vatican is employing the term.

&lt;i&gt;“We” are all members of the Body of Christ to the extent that we are in communion with the Body of Christ, the Church&lt;/i&gt;

And does not baptism bring about that communion, at least to some degree?  As a Catholic I am connected through the sacraments with Christ, and through Christ with my fellow Christians, regardless of ecclesial status.  Is this not a reasonable manner in which to speak of communion?  Grace flows to all from the same source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I suspect you are using &#8220;communion&#8221; in the sense of direct or indirect eucharistic communion.  You are right that this is not how the Vatican is employing the term.</p>
<p><i>“We” are all members of the Body of Christ to the extent that we are in communion with the Body of Christ, the Church</i></p>
<p>And does not baptism bring about that communion, at least to some degree?  As a Catholic I am connected through the sacraments with Christ, and through Christ with my fellow Christians, regardless of ecclesial status.  Is this not a reasonable manner in which to speak of communion?  Grace flows to all from the same source.
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		<title>by: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7259</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7259</guid>
					<description>IIRC the filioque isn't a part of the Eastern Rites, so I wouldn't be shocked that it wasn't included.

ROCOR has had a very closed communion has gone so far as to deny the efficacy of Sacraments of other Orthodox Churches IIRC, and I think part of the understanding may stem from there.  There are other and deeper seeming contradictions out there.  For example, the Jewish race is the chosen people, but then we are told the Lord was with the Gentiles the entire time and there are gentiles in fact with the Lord.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IIRC the filioque isn&#8217;t a part of the Eastern Rites, so I wouldn&#8217;t be shocked that it wasn&#8217;t included.</p>
<p>ROCOR has had a very closed communion has gone so far as to deny the efficacy of Sacraments of other Orthodox Churches IIRC, and I think part of the understanding may stem from there.  There are other and deeper seeming contradictions out there.  For example, the Jewish race is the chosen people, but then we are told the Lord was with the Gentiles the entire time and there are gentiles in fact with the Lord.
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		<title>by: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7257</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 04:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7257</guid>
					<description>Interestingly,  &lt;i&gt;Dominus Iesus&lt;/i&gt; quotes the Nicene creed, and does not include the &lt;i&gt;filioque&lt;/i&gt;.

Is this just historical accuracy or is there some kind of diplomatic overture going on here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly,  <i>Dominus Iesus</i> quotes the Nicene creed, and does not include the <i>filioque</i>.</p>
<p>Is this just historical accuracy or is there some kind of diplomatic overture going on here?
</p>
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		<title>by: Anthony King</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7255</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7255</guid>
					<description>I also find the "imperfect communion" puzzling.  From the Catholic side, the sticking point is recognition of the pope of Rome as head of the Communion of Catholic Churches.  I'm Eastern Catholic, and as far as I can tell, we're a-ok with Rome because we pay lip service to the pope of Rome twice during Divine Liturgy.  We have our own canon laws, theology, etc. just as the Eastern Orthodox do, yet we're one of the 23 churches in full communion with Rome, while the Eastern Orthodox are not.

On the Orthodox side there are more serious beefs, and rightly so.  I sense more willingness on the Catholic side to smooth over differences, as evidenced by Eastern Catholic churches' full communion with Rome.  But they're not going to give up their insistence that the pope of Rome by recognized as head of the Communion of Catholic Churches by any church wishing to gain full communion.  The Orthodox have no such desire, of course.

The "imperfect communion" is the Catholic way of saying, "close enough."  From the Orthodox perspective we're is a state of non-communion, but on the Catholic side the "close enough" allows him to come to my church and receive the Eucharist.  My priest would have no impediment serving him the Eucharist (his priest would not take the same view, if I understand correctly).  And since the celebration of this sacrament is, in the Catholic understanding, what constitutes a church, and the fact that we can share this sacrament means we're in communion, though imperfectly.

I know that leaves much to be explained.  The "imperfect communion" seems to me to weaken the Catholic insistence on the primacy of the pope of Rome over the Communion of Churches.  And if anyone can explain to me that this is not the sticking point (for Rome), please do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also find the &#8220;imperfect communion&#8221; puzzling.  From the Catholic side, the sticking point is recognition of the pope of Rome as head of the Communion of Catholic Churches.  I&#8217;m Eastern Catholic, and as far as I can tell, we&#8217;re a-ok with Rome because we pay lip service to the pope of Rome twice during Divine Liturgy.  We have our own canon laws, theology, etc. just as the Eastern Orthodox do, yet we&#8217;re one of the 23 churches in full communion with Rome, while the Eastern Orthodox are not.</p>
<p>On the Orthodox side there are more serious beefs, and rightly so.  I sense more willingness on the Catholic side to smooth over differences, as evidenced by Eastern Catholic churches&#8217; full communion with Rome.  But they&#8217;re not going to give up their insistence that the pope of Rome by recognized as head of the Communion of Catholic Churches by any church wishing to gain full communion.  The Orthodox have no such desire, of course.</p>
<p>The &#8220;imperfect communion&#8221; is the Catholic way of saying, &#8220;close enough.&#8221;  From the Orthodox perspective we&#8217;re is a state of non-communion, but on the Catholic side the &#8220;close enough&#8221; allows him to come to my church and receive the Eucharist.  My priest would have no impediment serving him the Eucharist (his priest would not take the same view, if I understand correctly).  And since the celebration of this sacrament is, in the Catholic understanding, what constitutes a church, and the fact that we can share this sacrament means we&#8217;re in communion, though imperfectly.</p>
<p>I know that leaves much to be explained.  The &#8220;imperfect communion&#8221; seems to me to weaken the Catholic insistence on the primacy of the pope of Rome over the Communion of Churches.  And if anyone can explain to me that this is not the sticking point (for Rome), please do so.
</p>
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		<title>by: Dino</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7251</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7251</guid>
					<description>St. Augustine provides an explanation in his treatise against the Donatists ("On Baptism"). It is possible to have valid orders and the sacraments outside the Church, &lt;i&gt;yet they do not benefit unto salvation&lt;/i&gt;. The Donatists (like the Orthodox today) were objectively outside the Mystical Body of Christ for lack of submission to the Pope. (St. Augustine excludes those--the invincibly ignorant--who are not moral culpable for their schismatic state).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>St. Augustine provides an explanation in his treatise against the Donatists (&#8221;On Baptism&#8221;). It is possible to have valid orders and the sacraments outside the Church, <i>yet they do not benefit unto salvation</i>. The Donatists (like the Orthodox today) were objectively outside the Mystical Body of Christ for lack of submission to the Pope. (St. Augustine excludes those&#8211;the invincibly ignorant&#8211;who are not moral culpable for their schismatic state).
</p>
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		<title>by: tedschan</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7250</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7250</guid>
					<description>A second attempt:

In Catholic teaching, 3 conditions need to be met for a mortal sin (such as schism) to be committed. (Here is an &lt;a href="http://www.trosch.org/the/mortal-sin.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;explanation&lt;/a&gt; of the 3 conditions, the first link I found when I googled, but it looks adequate.) If any of those conditions are absent, then a sin is not committed, i.e. there is no true schism, although what we do and say may seem like schism. If I am in the state of grace, united with God, and do what I believe to be in accordance with His will (and I am not culpably ignorant of what He wants), then I remain united with Him, even though I do not do all that is in accordance with His will (like be in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as Pope), because of my ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A second attempt:</p>
<p>In Catholic teaching, 3 conditions need to be met for a mortal sin (such as schism) to be committed. (Here is an <a href="http://www.trosch.org/the/mortal-sin.html" rel="nofollow">explanation</a> of the 3 conditions, the first link I found when I googled, but it looks adequate.) If any of those conditions are absent, then a sin is not committed, i.e. there is no true schism, although what we do and say may seem like schism. If I am in the state of grace, united with God, and do what I believe to be in accordance with His will (and I am not culpably ignorant of what He wants), then I remain united with Him, even though I do not do all that is in accordance with His will (like be in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as Pope), because of my ignorance.
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7249</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7249</guid>
					<description>Well, the latter part is strange as well, but I suppose I just don't understand how there can be "imperfect communion."  We are in a state of actual non-communion that is still being called communion.  That strikes me as odd, and I don't know of any pre-20th century precedents for it.  Perhaps I am missing something, but schism is the opposite of communion--it is not as if there is a sliding scale of more or less schism.  "We" are all members of the Body of Christ to the extent that we are in communion with the Body of Christ, the Church, and the crucial point for me is that most non-Catholics do not regard themselves as being in any kind of communion with Catholics.  I suppose it would not necessarily matter whether non-Catholics acknowledge this unity, but it seems as if it ought to matter.   

Likewise, it is not really a compliment to say that such-and-such a religion has some of the truth, since the fullness of the truth is the only thing efficacious for salvation.  I suppose the point would be that if non-Catholics can have valid orders and sacraments, and thus have hope of salvation in the confessions in which they currently are, there is no real reason to ever leave those confessions.  While this is a very diplomatic thing to say, I don't quite understand how you finally square it with the claim that the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the latter part is strange as well, but I suppose I just don&#8217;t understand how there can be &#8220;imperfect communion.&#8221;  We are in a state of actual non-communion that is still being called communion.  That strikes me as odd, and I don&#8217;t know of any pre-20th century precedents for it.  Perhaps I am missing something, but schism is the opposite of communion&#8211;it is not as if there is a sliding scale of more or less schism.  &#8220;We&#8221; are all members of the Body of Christ to the extent that we are in communion with the Body of Christ, the Church, and the crucial point for me is that most non-Catholics do not regard themselves as being in any kind of communion with Catholics.  I suppose it would not necessarily matter whether non-Catholics acknowledge this unity, but it seems as if it ought to matter.   </p>
<p>Likewise, it is not really a compliment to say that such-and-such a religion has some of the truth, since the fullness of the truth is the only thing efficacious for salvation.  I suppose the point would be that if non-Catholics can have valid orders and sacraments, and thus have hope of salvation in the confessions in which they currently are, there is no real reason to ever leave those confessions.  While this is a very diplomatic thing to say, I don&#8217;t quite understand how you finally square it with the claim that the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church alone.
</p>
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		<title>by: gabriel</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7248</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7248</guid>
					<description>Perhaps I simply don't understand the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology, but I'm not sure what is so very confusing.  Are we all members of the one Body of Christ?  From the Catholic perspective, indubitably.  Yet clearly that true communion is impaired and imperfect due to a lack of unity in doctrine and sacramental communion.

Perhaps the more difficult thing is how it is possible for Catholics to speak of the Orthodox as being true Churches?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I simply don&#8217;t understand the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology, but I&#8217;m not sure what is so very confusing.  Are we all members of the one Body of Christ?  From the Catholic perspective, indubitably.  Yet clearly that true communion is impaired and imperfect due to a lack of unity in doctrine and sacramental communion.</p>
<p>Perhaps the more difficult thing is how it is possible for Catholics to speak of the Orthodox as being true Churches?
</p>
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		<title>by: tedschan</title>
		<link>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7247</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larison.org/2007/07/10/breaking-news-vatican-restates-established-doctrine/#comment-7247</guid>
					<description>A quick attempt at an explanation: It has to do with the culpability of the separation and lack of "full" belief. So if there is involuntary ignorance then someone can be in the state of grace and in communion with Christ, despite appearing to be a material heretic or schismatic (from the Catholic pov)--If people are united to Christ in baptism and do not separate from him through their own fault, then they are still united to him, and hence the judgment/statements about "being in imperfect communion" and such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick attempt at an explanation: It has to do with the culpability of the separation and lack of &#8220;full&#8221; belief. So if there is involuntary ignorance then someone can be in the state of grace and in communion with Christ, despite appearing to be a material heretic or schismatic (from the Catholic pov)&#8211;If people are united to Christ in baptism and do not separate from him through their own fault, then they are still united to him, and hence the judgment/statements about &#8220;being in imperfect communion&#8221; and such.
</p>
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